Re: <nettime> Support Palestine Action and go to jail ...

[Keith Sanborn via nettime-l <nettime-l@lists.nettime.org>]

So very high. And every day higher until it sinks into total and utter disgrace. 

> On Jul 13, 2025, at 11:39 AM, Keith Sanborn <mrzero@panix.com> wrote:
> 
> I march with Jewish Voice for Peace in NYC. The power of the zionist lobby is very strong here. AIPAC gives hundreds of thousands of dollars to US Senator Kristen Gillibrand who denounced fellow “Democrat” Mamdani as a terrorist. “Democrat” Andrew Cuomo took money from zionist lobbies and made an executive order while governor of New York that anyone supporting BDS cd not do business with the State of New York. It has not been enforced, however, as far as I know. But there is a chilling effect.
> 
> Gillibrand’s strategic implicit or explicit support of Cuomo for mayor of NYC—by denouncing Mamdani—is extremely ironic since she called for him to step down as governor because of the multiple sexual harassment allegations against him.
> 
> Apparently zionism trumps MeToo. Sad.
> 
>> On Jul 13, 2025, at 11:13 AM, Brian Holmes via nettime-l <nettime-l@lists.nettime.org> wrote:
>> 
>> It's hard to see any meaning whatsoever in the word terrorist, when the
>> supposedly legitimate Israeli state supports mob violence by settlers and
>> uses its army to commit indiscriminate murder and mass destruction of
>> property every day.
>> 
>> An oppressed and effectively caged people mounted a violent insurgency
>> against a historically violent enemy. That enemy, true to its history,
>> proceeded to carry out a genocide. This is terrifying, but I can't make out
>> who is or is not a terrorist. Sure, Hamas has sworn to destroy Israel for
>> years. But Israel has destroyed countless Palestinian villages over many
>> many decades, they've stolen land, assassinated tens of thousands, put
>> others into camps and prisons, the list of atrocities is endless.
>> 
>> Given that the hardware for all the current death and destruction comes
>> from the US and Europe, I don't know how to believe in the moral high
>> ground that a term like terrorism would claim. Kafka got it right in his
>> last novel, Amerika, where the protagonist entering New York harbor is
>> struck by the sight of the sword held aloft by the Statue of Liberty. "So
>> high," he marvels.
>> 
>> BH
>> 
>>> On Sun, Jul 13, 2025 at 4:49 AM Oliver Gassner via nettime-l <
>>> nettime-l@lists.nettime.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Am Sa., 12. Juli 2025 um 19:09 Uhr schrieb Patrice Riemens <
>>> patrice@puscii.nl>:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Oliver,
>>>> That Hamas is a terrorist organisation is generally well known to the
>>>> readers of both Nettime and The Guardian, the latter ritually mentioning
>>> 7
>>>> October in every article about the Gaza situation. So your making Owen
>>>> Jones' opinion piece for 'a little less convincing' because it does not
>>>> mention it must be read in my opinion as 'this whole Owen Jones stand by
>>>> Palestine Action piece is biased, pro-terrorist bullshit'.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Patrice,
>>> 
>>> Well, I can hardly tell you what has to happen in your brain when you read
>>> my words.
>>> If you knew me, you'd know, that if I had meant that I'd have written that.
>>> 
>>> A line like "being pro-Palestine does not of course mean one is pro-Hamas
>>> and it's actions" would have been enough.
>>> 
>>> NOT mentioning Hamas at all seems ... negligent if not... intentional.
>>> I would even refrain from suggesting the one or the other.
>>> 
>>> Also, showing understanding for terrorist actions does not condone them.
>>> 
>>> Let's look at the argument analytically.
>>> 
>>> It is: "Being pro-Palestine does not mean you are a terrorist."
>>> (The article ends here ;)
>>> Let us continue waking Socrates and Plato from the dead.
>>> "Now, why would one think so?"
>>> "Because in Gaza there is a semi-administrative semi-military/terrorist
>>> group called Hamas that has been attacking Israel for years, is sworn to
>>> destroy Israel and (is said to have) orchestrated the October attacks that
>>> mainly targeted civilians and included killing kids and raping women"
>>> "Ah, so pro-Palestinian means pro-Hamas?"
>>> "No, many Palestinians are against Hamas but do not dare to speak out for
>>> fear of being killed by Hamas. Being pro-Palestinian means, that one is
>>> opposed to the death and starvation that the plaestinians both in gaza and
>>> the west bank are subjected to."
>>> "Ah, so I can be anti-terrorist, anti-Hamas and pro Palestinian?"
>>> "Yup."
>>> "I get your argument now."
>>> ===
>>> But you are of course welcome to think whatever you want, as long as you do
>>> not claim that your thoughts reflect reality.
>>> 
>>> Oliver
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> *From: *"Oliver Gassner" <fraktal@gmx.de>
>>>> *To: *"<nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
>>>> collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets" <
>>>> nettime-l@lists.nettime.org>
>>>> *Cc: *"Patrice Riemens" <patrice@puscii.nl>
>>>> *Sent: *Saturday, 12 July, 2025 16:50:52
>>>> *Subject: *Re: <nettime> Support Palestine Action and go to jail ...
>>>> 
>>>> Well, the word Hamas (which is rather undoubtedly a terrorist
>>> organization
>>>> - not only after the October attacs) and also differentiate between Hamas
>>>> and 'ordinary Palestinians' would have do the (otherwise very good)
>>>> argument, a whole lot of good.
>>>> Without that mention, I fear, it is a little less convincing.
>>>> 
>>>> Am Mi., 9. Juli 2025 um 15:20 Uhr schrieb Patrice Riemens via nettime-l <
>>>> nettime-l@lists.nettime.org>:
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ... and never mind the Suffragettes!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Original to:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/jul/09/palestine-action-britain-support-protest-law
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ....
>>>> 
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