| Nina Temporär via nettime-l on Mon, 14 Jul 2025 19:11:19 +0200 (CEST) |
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| Re: <nettime> Support Palestine Action and go to jail ... |
Seriously? Palestinian Jews fought against the British as well, were subject to progroms incited by Hitler-Buddy Al-Husseini, were threatened with eternal bloodshed by the leaders of neighbouring Arab/Muslim states in case of the UN partition taking place, and after their declaration of independence were attacked by an Arab alliance within just hours. Oh and: https://medium.com/@sigmaxavi/the-list-of-crimes-committed-by-muslims-against-jews-since-the-7th-century-0ff1a8eb0ad0 Try again... > Gesendet: Montag, den 14.07.2025 um 00:50 Uhr > Von: "Louis Rawlins via nettime-l" <nettime-l@lists.nettime.org> > An: "<nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets" <nettime-l@lists.nettime.org> > Cc: "Louis Rawlins" <louis.rawlins@gmail.com> > Betreff: Re: <nettime> Support Palestine Action and go to jail ... > > Hi Peeps. > > In the very postmodern sense, I'm gonna just share (what I'm pretty sure I > shared before) on this list as a quick history for folks that like to have > history categorized. Temporalessness. Nowness. All that stuff. I'm not > present enough in this dialogue to feel fully present to the participants > (belligerents?), but I feel compelled to share what I've previously found > mighty helpful in understanding our present. > > === > RASHID KHALIDI > > > *THE NECK AND THE SWORD* > *Let’s start with the present, not just in the sense of the horrors being > inflicted on Palestine right now, but the present as part of Palestine’s > still-active past. The brutal Anglo-Zionist repression of the great Arab > Revolt of 1936–39 was followed by the Nakba of 1948, the Six-Day War in > 1967, the 1982 siege of Beirut, led by Ariel Sharon, and the massacres of > Sabra and Shatila, the two Intifadas, the continuous raining down of terror > by Israel since then. Yet the post-October 7 genocide seems to have had a > bigger global impact than any of these.* > Yes, something has shifted globally. I’m not sure why those historic > episodes did not have the effect of completely changing the narrative—the > popular narrative, in particular. I don’t want to speculate about things > like social media. But this has been the first genocide that a generation > has witnessed in real time, on their devices. Was it the first in recent > times in which the us, Britain and Western powers were direct participants, > unlike others, in Sudan or Myanmar? Did the work of pro-Palestinian > advocates over a generation or more prepare people for this? I don’t know. > But you are right that as a result of the horrors that have been inflicted > on Gaza over eight continuous months, and which are still being inflicted > now, something new has happened. The displacement of three quarters of a > million people in 1948 did not produce the same impact. The 1936–39 Arab > Revolt is almost completely forgotten. None of those earlier events had > anything like this effect. > === > https://newleftreview.org/issues/ii147/articles/the-neck-and-the-sword > > There is a paywall, but the summary ought to give an adequate jumping-off > point. Suffering ain't new and confusing state-sanctioned violence with > truth causes all humans harm – regardless the parties or perspectives. > > > I'm coming from a position that is biased towards New Left Review and a > search for anything resembling communitarianism, socialism, eg: whatever > helps people see that our fates are bound and intertwined. > > Apologies in advance for lack of response, as I'm prone to checking nettime > threads when I see multiple digests pile-up which indicates to me a thread > of concern. I've got my own navigations of disability and fulltime work, so > I'll leave it at me enjoying having a minute on a Sunday to make contact > with a wider world. > > Hope everybody's well. Hope people feel filled-in or fulfilled by these > dialogues: that's why I'm here on nettime. Our relationship builds meaning > for me in this increasingly arbitrary project that we call globalism (or > whatever). > > Peace, Louis > > ------------------------------ > louisrawlins.com > 248-808-8908 > > > On Sun, Jul 13, 2025 at 8:41 AM <nettime-l-request@lists.nettime.org> wrote: > > > Send nettime-l mailing list submissions to > > nettime-l@lists.nettime.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://lists.servus.at/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > nettime-l-request@lists.nettime.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > nettime-l-owner@lists.nettime.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of nettime-l digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Support Palestine Action and go to jail ... (Keith Sanborn) > > 2. Re: Support Palestine Action and go to jail ... (Brian Holmes) > > 3. Re: Support Palestine Action and go to jail ... (Keith Sanborn) > > 4. Re: Support Palestine Action and go to jail ... (Keith Sanborn) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2025 09:21:28 -0400 > > From: Keith Sanborn <mrzero@panix.com> > > To: nettime-l@lists.nettime.org > > Subject: Re: <nettime> Support Palestine Action and go to jail ... > > Message-ID: <2D256F5C-8A76-4B13-85EF-0E0B874098BC@panix.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > Oh, did we forget that genocide is bring carried out against the > > Palestinians by the official policies and actions of the IDF and the > > actions of terrorist ?settlers? with impunity and with the explicit support > > of the IDF as well as terrorist organizations like AIPAC who work > > tirelessly to promote the military support of Israel by the US which makes > > this possible? > > > > Keith Sanborn > > > > > On Jul 13, 2025, at 5:49?AM, Oliver Gassner via nettime-l < > > nettime-l@lists.nettime.org> wrote: > > > > > > ?Am Sa., 12. Juli 2025 um 19:09 Uhr schrieb Patrice Riemens < > > > patrice@puscii.nl>: > > > > > >> > > >> Oliver, > > >> That Hamas is a terrorist organisation is generally well known to the > > >> readers of both Nettime and The Guardian, the latter ritually > > mentioning 7 > > >> October in every article about the Gaza situation. So your making Owen > > >> Jones' opinion piece for 'a little less convincing' because it does not > > >> mention it must be read in my opinion as 'this whole Owen Jones stand by > > >> Palestine Action piece is biased, pro-terrorist bullshit'. > > >> > > > > > > Patrice, > > > > > > Well, I can hardly tell you what has to happen in your brain when you > > read > > > my words. > > > If you knew me, you'd know, that if I had meant that I'd have written > > that. > > > > > > A line like "being pro-Palestine does not of course mean one is pro-Hamas > > > and it's actions" would have been enough. > > > > > > NOT mentioning Hamas at all seems ... negligent if not... intentional. > > > I would even refrain from suggesting the one or the other. > > > > > > Also, showing understanding for terrorist actions does not condone them. > > > > > > Let's look at the argument analytically. > > > > > > It is: "Being pro-Palestine does not mean you are a terrorist." > > > (The article ends here ;) > > > Let us continue waking Socrates and Plato from the dead. > > > "Now, why would one think so?" > > > "Because in Gaza there is a semi-administrative semi-military/terrorist > > > group called Hamas that has been attacking Israel for years, is sworn to > > > destroy Israel and (is said to have) orchestrated the October attacks > > that > > > mainly targeted civilians and included killing kids and raping women" > > > "Ah, so pro-Palestinian means pro-Hamas?" > > > "No, many Palestinians are against Hamas but do not dare to speak out for > > > fear of being killed by Hamas. Being pro-Palestinian means, that one is > > > opposed to the death and starvation that the plaestinians both in gaza > > and > > > the west bank are subjected to." > > > "Ah, so I can be anti-terrorist, anti-Hamas and pro Palestinian?" > > > "Yup." > > > "I get your argument now." > > > === > > > But you are of course welcome to think whatever you want, as long as you > > do > > > not claim that your thoughts reflect reality. > > > > > > Oliver > > > > > > > > >> ------------------------------ > > >> *From: *"Oliver Gassner" <fraktal@gmx.de> > > >> *To: *"<nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > >> collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets" < > > >> nettime-l@lists.nettime.org> > > >> *Cc: *"Patrice Riemens" <patrice@puscii.nl> > > >> *Sent: *Saturday, 12 July, 2025 16:50:52 > > >> *Subject: *Re: <nettime> Support Palestine Action and go to jail ... > > >> > > >> Well, the word Hamas (which is rather undoubtedly a terrorist > > organization > > >> - not only after the October attacs) and also differentiate between > > Hamas > > >> and 'ordinary Palestinians' would have do the (otherwise very good) > > >> argument, a whole lot of good. > > >> Without that mention, I fear, it is a little less convincing. > > >> > > >>> Am Mi., 9. Juli 2025 um 15:20 Uhr schrieb Patrice Riemens via > > nettime-l < > > >>> nettime-l@lists.nettime.org>: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> ... and never mind the Suffragettes! > > >>> > > >>> Original to: > > >>> > > >>> > > https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/jul/09/palestine-action-britain-support-protest-law > > >> > > >> > > >> .... > > >> > > > -- > > > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > > > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > > > # more info: https://www.nettime.org > > > # contact: nettime-l-owner@lists.nettime.org > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2025 10:12:10 -0500 > > From: Brian Holmes <bhcontinentaldrift@gmail.com> > > To: "<nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets" > > <nettime-l@lists.nettime.org> > > Subject: Re: <nettime> Support Palestine Action and go to jail ... > > Message-ID: > > < > > CANuiTgyzzyr6pPWTrCv_9v46RpSzD5Ua-7hEGDkPbCQwQSrRbQ@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > > It's hard to see any meaning whatsoever in the word terrorist, when the > > supposedly legitimate Israeli state supports mob violence by settlers and > > uses its army to commit indiscriminate murder and mass destruction of > > property every day. > > > > An oppressed and effectively caged people mounted a violent insurgency > > against a historically violent enemy. That enemy, true to its history, > > proceeded to carry out a genocide. This is terrifying, but I can't make out > > who is or is not a terrorist. Sure, Hamas has sworn to destroy Israel for > > years. But Israel has destroyed countless Palestinian villages over many > > many decades, they've stolen land, assassinated tens of thousands, put > > others into camps and prisons, the list of atrocities is endless. > > > > Given that the hardware for all the current death and destruction comes > > from the US and Europe, I don't know how to believe in the moral high > > ground that a term like terrorism would claim. Kafka got it right in his > > last novel, Amerika, where the protagonist entering New York harbor is > > struck by the sight of the sword held aloft by the Statue of Liberty. "So > > high," he marvels. > > > > BH > > > > On Sun, Jul 13, 2025 at 4:49?AM Oliver Gassner via nettime-l < > > nettime-l@lists.nettime.org> wrote: > > > > > Am Sa., 12. Juli 2025 um 19:09 Uhr schrieb Patrice Riemens < > > > patrice@puscii.nl>: > > > > > > > > > > > Oliver, > > > > That Hamas is a terrorist organisation is generally well known to the > > > > readers of both Nettime and The Guardian, the latter ritually > > mentioning > > > 7 > > > > October in every article about the Gaza situation. So your making Owen > > > > Jones' opinion piece for 'a little less convincing' because it does not > > > > mention it must be read in my opinion as 'this whole Owen Jones stand > > by > > > > Palestine Action piece is biased, pro-terrorist bullshit'. > > > > > > > > > > Patrice, > > > > > > Well, I can hardly tell you what has to happen in your brain when you > > read > > > my words. > > > If you knew me, you'd know, that if I had meant that I'd have written > > that. > > > > > > A line like "being pro-Palestine does not of course mean one is > > pro-Hamas > > > and it's actions" would have been enough. > > > > > > NOT mentioning Hamas at all seems ... negligent if not... intentional. > > > I would even refrain from suggesting the one or the other. > > > > > > Also, showing understanding for terrorist actions does not condone them. > > > > > > Let's look at the argument analytically. > > > > > > It is: "Being pro-Palestine does not mean you are a terrorist." > > > (The article ends here ;) > > > Let us continue waking Socrates and Plato from the dead. > > > "Now, why would one think so?" > > > "Because in Gaza there is a semi-administrative semi-military/terrorist > > > group called Hamas that has been attacking Israel for years, is sworn to > > > destroy Israel and (is said to have) orchestrated the October attacks > > that > > > mainly targeted civilians and included killing kids and raping women" > > > "Ah, so pro-Palestinian means pro-Hamas?" > > > "No, many Palestinians are against Hamas but do not dare to speak out for > > > fear of being killed by Hamas. Being pro-Palestinian means, that one is > > > opposed to the death and starvation that the plaestinians both in gaza > > and > > > the west bank are subjected to." > > > "Ah, so I can be anti-terrorist, anti-Hamas and pro Palestinian?" > > > "Yup." > > > "I get your argument now." > > > === > > > But you are of course welcome to think whatever you want, as long as you > > do > > > not claim that your thoughts reflect reality. > > > > > > Oliver > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > *From: *"Oliver Gassner" <fraktal@gmx.de> > > > > *To: *"<nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > > > collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets" < > > > > nettime-l@lists.nettime.org> > > > > *Cc: *"Patrice Riemens" <patrice@puscii.nl> > > > > *Sent: *Saturday, 12 July, 2025 16:50:52 > > > > *Subject: *Re: <nettime> Support Palestine Action and go to jail ... > > > > > > > > Well, the word Hamas (which is rather undoubtedly a terrorist > > > organization > > > > - not only after the October attacs) and also differentiate between > > Hamas > > > > and 'ordinary Palestinians' would have do the (otherwise very good) > > > > argument, a whole lot of good. > > > > Without that mention, I fear, it is a little less convincing. > > > > > > > > Am Mi., 9. Juli 2025 um 15:20 Uhr schrieb Patrice Riemens via > > nettime-l < > > > > nettime-l@lists.nettime.org>: > > > > > > > >> > > > >> ... and never mind the Suffragettes! > > > >> > > > >> Original to: > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/jul/09/palestine-action-britain-support-protest-law > > > > > > > > > > > > .... > > > > > > > -- > > > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > > > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > > > # more info: https://www.nettime.org > > > # contact: nettime-l-owner@lists.nettime.org > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2025 11:38:23 -0400 > > From: Keith Sanborn <mrzero@panix.com> > > To: nettime-l@lists.nettime.org > > Subject: Re: <nettime> Support Palestine Action and go to jail ... > > Message-ID: <782CE64C-3AA7-4FE2-9987-5ADAB76E78A8@panix.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > I march with Jewish Voice for Peace in NYC. The power of the zionist lobby > > is very strong here. AIPAC gives hundreds of thousands of dollars to US > > Senator Kristen Gillibrand who denounced fellow ?Democrat? Mamdani as a > > terrorist. ?Democrat? Andrew Cuomo took money from zionist lobbies and made > > an executive order while governor of New York that anyone supporting BDS cd > > not do business with the State of New York. It has not been enforced, > > however, as far as I know. But there is a chilling effect. > > > > Gillibrand?s strategic implicit or explicit support of Cuomo for mayor of > > NYC?by denouncing Mamdani?is extremely ironic since she called for him to > > step down as governor because of the multiple sexual harassment allegations > > against him. > > > > Apparently zionism trumps MeToo. Sad. > > > > > On Jul 13, 2025, at 11:13?AM, Brian Holmes via nettime-l < > > nettime-l@lists.nettime.org> wrote: > > > > > > ?It's hard to see any meaning whatsoever in the word terrorist, when the > > > supposedly legitimate Israeli state supports mob violence by settlers and > > > uses its army to commit indiscriminate murder and mass destruction of > > > property every day. > > > > > > An oppressed and effectively caged people mounted a violent insurgency > > > against a historically violent enemy. That enemy, true to its history, > > > proceeded to carry out a genocide. This is terrifying, but I can't make > > out > > > who is or is not a terrorist. Sure, Hamas has sworn to destroy Israel for > > > years. But Israel has destroyed countless Palestinian villages over many > > > many decades, they've stolen land, assassinated tens of thousands, put > > > others into camps and prisons, the list of atrocities is endless. > > > > > > Given that the hardware for all the current death and destruction comes > > > from the US and Europe, I don't know how to believe in the moral high > > > ground that a term like terrorism would claim. Kafka got it right in his > > > last novel, Amerika, where the protagonist entering New York harbor is > > > struck by the sight of the sword held aloft by the Statue of Liberty. "So > > > high," he marvels. > > > > > > BH > > > > > >> On Sun, Jul 13, 2025 at 4:49?AM Oliver Gassner via nettime-l < > > >> nettime-l@lists.nettime.org> wrote: > > >> > > >> Am Sa., 12. Juli 2025 um 19:09 Uhr schrieb Patrice Riemens < > > >> patrice@puscii.nl>: > > >> > > >>> > > >>> Oliver, > > >>> That Hamas is a terrorist organisation is generally well known to the > > >>> readers of both Nettime and The Guardian, the latter ritually > > mentioning > > >> 7 > > >>> October in every article about the Gaza situation. So your making Owen > > >>> Jones' opinion piece for 'a little less convincing' because it does not > > >>> mention it must be read in my opinion as 'this whole Owen Jones stand > > by > > >>> Palestine Action piece is biased, pro-terrorist bullshit'. > > >>> > > >> > > >> Patrice, > > >> > > >> Well, I can hardly tell you what has to happen in your brain when you > > read > > >> my words. > > >> If you knew me, you'd know, that if I had meant that I'd have written > > that. > > >> > > >> A line like "being pro-Palestine does not of course mean one is > > pro-Hamas > > >> and it's actions" would have been enough. > > >> > > >> NOT mentioning Hamas at all seems ... negligent if not... intentional. > > >> I would even refrain from suggesting the one or the other. > > >> > > >> Also, showing understanding for terrorist actions does not condone them. > > >> > > >> Let's look at the argument analytically. > > >> > > >> It is: "Being pro-Palestine does not mean you are a terrorist." > > >> (The article ends here ;) > > >> Let us continue waking Socrates and Plato from the dead. > > >> "Now, why would one think so?" > > >> "Because in Gaza there is a semi-administrative semi-military/terrorist > > >> group called Hamas that has been attacking Israel for years, is sworn to > > >> destroy Israel and (is said to have) orchestrated the October attacks > > that > > >> mainly targeted civilians and included killing kids and raping women" > > >> "Ah, so pro-Palestinian means pro-Hamas?" > > >> "No, many Palestinians are against Hamas but do not dare to speak out > > for > > >> fear of being killed by Hamas. Being pro-Palestinian means, that one is > > >> opposed to the death and starvation that the plaestinians both in gaza > > and > > >> the west bank are subjected to." > > >> "Ah, so I can be anti-terrorist, anti-Hamas and pro Palestinian?" > > >> "Yup." > > >> "I get your argument now." > > >> === > > >> But you are of course welcome to think whatever you want, as long as > > you do > > >> not claim that your thoughts reflect reality. > > >> > > >> Oliver > > >> > > >> > > >>> ------------------------------ > > >>> *From: *"Oliver Gassner" <fraktal@gmx.de> > > >>> *To: *"<nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > >>> collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets" < > > >>> nettime-l@lists.nettime.org> > > >>> *Cc: *"Patrice Riemens" <patrice@puscii.nl> > > >>> *Sent: *Saturday, 12 July, 2025 16:50:52 > > >>> *Subject: *Re: <nettime> Support Palestine Action and go to jail ... > > >>> > > >>> Well, the word Hamas (which is rather undoubtedly a terrorist > > >> organization > > >>> - not only after the October attacs) and also differentiate between > > Hamas > > >>> and 'ordinary Palestinians' would have do the (otherwise very good) > > >>> argument, a whole lot of good. > > >>> Without that mention, I fear, it is a little less convincing. > > >>> > > >>> Am Mi., 9. Juli 2025 um 15:20 Uhr schrieb Patrice Riemens via > > nettime-l < > > >>> nettime-l@lists.nettime.org>: > > >>> > > >>>> > > >>>> ... and never mind the Suffragettes! > > >>>> > > >>>> Original to: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/jul/09/palestine-action-britain-support-protest-law > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> .... > > >>> > > >> -- > > >> # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > > >> # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > >> # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > > >> # more info: https://www.nettime.org > > >> # contact: nettime-l-owner@lists.nettime.org > > >> > > > -- > > > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > > > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > > > # more info: https://www.nettime.org > > > # contact: nettime-l-owner@lists.nettime.org > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2025 11:40:23 -0400 > > From: Keith Sanborn <mrzero@panix.com> > > To: nettime-l@lists.nettime.org > > Subject: Re: <nettime> Support Palestine Action and go to jail ... > > Message-ID: <05276556-E3A9-4079-B4AD-84C9335C1A1E@panix.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > So very high. And every day higher until it sinks into total and utter > > disgrace. > > > > > On Jul 13, 2025, at 11:39?AM, Keith Sanborn <mrzero@panix.com> wrote: > > > > > > ?I march with Jewish Voice for Peace in NYC. The power of the zionist > > lobby is very strong here. AIPAC gives hundreds of thousands of dollars to > > US Senator Kristen Gillibrand who denounced fellow ?Democrat? Mamdani as a > > terrorist. ?Democrat? Andrew Cuomo took money from zionist lobbies and made > > an executive order while governor of New York that anyone supporting BDS cd > > not do business with the State of New York. It has not been enforced, > > however, as far as I know. But there is a chilling effect. > > > > > > Gillibrand?s strategic implicit or explicit support of Cuomo for mayor > > of NYC?by denouncing Mamdani?is extremely ironic since she called for him > > to step down as governor because of the multiple sexual harassment > > allegations against him. > > > > > > Apparently zionism trumps MeToo. Sad. > > > > > >> On Jul 13, 2025, at 11:13?AM, Brian Holmes via nettime-l < > > nettime-l@lists.nettime.org> wrote: > > >> > > >> ?It's hard to see any meaning whatsoever in the word terrorist, when the > > >> supposedly legitimate Israeli state supports mob violence by settlers > > and > > >> uses its army to commit indiscriminate murder and mass destruction of > > >> property every day. > > >> > > >> An oppressed and effectively caged people mounted a violent insurgency > > >> against a historically violent enemy. That enemy, true to its history, > > >> proceeded to carry out a genocide. This is terrifying, but I can't make > > out > > >> who is or is not a terrorist. Sure, Hamas has sworn to destroy Israel > > for > > >> years. But Israel has destroyed countless Palestinian villages over many > > >> many decades, they've stolen land, assassinated tens of thousands, put > > >> others into camps and prisons, the list of atrocities is endless. > > >> > > >> Given that the hardware for all the current death and destruction comes > > >> from the US and Europe, I don't know how to believe in the moral high > > >> ground that a term like terrorism would claim. Kafka got it right in his > > >> last novel, Amerika, where the protagonist entering New York harbor is > > >> struck by the sight of the sword held aloft by the Statue of Liberty. > > "So > > >> high," he marvels. > > >> > > >> BH > > >> > > >>> On Sun, Jul 13, 2025 at 4:49?AM Oliver Gassner via nettime-l < > > >>> nettime-l@lists.nettime.org> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Am Sa., 12. Juli 2025 um 19:09 Uhr schrieb Patrice Riemens < > > >>> patrice@puscii.nl>: > > >>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Oliver, > > >>>> That Hamas is a terrorist organisation is generally well known to the > > >>>> readers of both Nettime and The Guardian, the latter ritually > > mentioning > > >>> 7 > > >>>> October in every article about the Gaza situation. So your making Owen > > >>>> Jones' opinion piece for 'a little less convincing' because it does > > not > > >>>> mention it must be read in my opinion as 'this whole Owen Jones stand > > by > > >>>> Palestine Action piece is biased, pro-terrorist bullshit'. > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> Patrice, > > >>> > > >>> Well, I can hardly tell you what has to happen in your brain when you > > read > > >>> my words. > > >>> If you knew me, you'd know, that if I had meant that I'd have written > > that. > > >>> > > >>> A line like "being pro-Palestine does not of course mean one is > > pro-Hamas > > >>> and it's actions" would have been enough. > > >>> > > >>> NOT mentioning Hamas at all seems ... negligent if not... intentional. > > >>> I would even refrain from suggesting the one or the other. > > >>> > > >>> Also, showing understanding for terrorist actions does not condone > > them. > > >>> > > >>> Let's look at the argument analytically. > > >>> > > >>> It is: "Being pro-Palestine does not mean you are a terrorist." > > >>> (The article ends here ;) > > >>> Let us continue waking Socrates and Plato from the dead. > > >>> "Now, why would one think so?" > > >>> "Because in Gaza there is a semi-administrative semi-military/terrorist > > >>> group called Hamas that has been attacking Israel for years, is sworn > > to > > >>> destroy Israel and (is said to have) orchestrated the October attacks > > that > > >>> mainly targeted civilians and included killing kids and raping women" > > >>> "Ah, so pro-Palestinian means pro-Hamas?" > > >>> "No, many Palestinians are against Hamas but do not dare to speak out > > for > > >>> fear of being killed by Hamas. Being pro-Palestinian means, that one is > > >>> opposed to the death and starvation that the plaestinians both in gaza > > and > > >>> the west bank are subjected to." > > >>> "Ah, so I can be anti-terrorist, anti-Hamas and pro Palestinian?" > > >>> "Yup." > > >>> "I get your argument now." > > >>> === > > >>> But you are of course welcome to think whatever you want, as long as > > you do > > >>> not claim that your thoughts reflect reality. > > >>> > > >>> Oliver > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> ------------------------------ > > >>>> *From: *"Oliver Gassner" <fraktal@gmx.de> > > >>>> *To: *"<nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > >>>> collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets" < > > >>>> nettime-l@lists.nettime.org> > > >>>> *Cc: *"Patrice Riemens" <patrice@puscii.nl> > > >>>> *Sent: *Saturday, 12 July, 2025 16:50:52 > > >>>> *Subject: *Re: <nettime> Support Palestine Action and go to jail ... > > >>>> > > >>>> Well, the word Hamas (which is rather undoubtedly a terrorist > > >>> organization > > >>>> - not only after the October attacs) and also differentiate between > > Hamas > > >>>> and 'ordinary Palestinians' would have do the (otherwise very good) > > >>>> argument, a whole lot of good. > > >>>> Without that mention, I fear, it is a little less convincing. > > >>>> > > >>>> Am Mi., 9. Juli 2025 um 15:20 Uhr schrieb Patrice Riemens via > > nettime-l < > > >>>> nettime-l@lists.nettime.org>: > > >>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> ... and never mind the Suffragettes! > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Original to: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>> > > https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/jul/09/palestine-action-britain-support-protest-law > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> .... > > >>>> > > >>> -- > > >>> # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > > >>> # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > >>> # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > > >>> # more info: https://www.nettime.org > > >>> # contact: nettime-l-owner@lists.nettime.org > > >>> > > >> -- > > >> # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > > >> # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > >> # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > > >> # more info: https://www.nettime.org > > >> # contact: nettime-l-owner@lists.nettime.org > > > -- > > > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > > > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > > > # more info: https://www.nettime.org > > > # contact: nettime-l-owner@lists.nettime.org > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Subject: Digest Footer > > > > -- > > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > > # more info: https://www.nettime.org > > # contact: nettime-l-owner@lists.nettime.org > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of nettime-l Digest, Vol 25, Issue 8 > > **************************************** > > > -- > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > # more info: https://www.nettime.org > # contact: nettime-l-owner@lists.nettime.org -- # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: https://www.nettime.org # contact: nettime-l-owner@lists.nettime.org