Re: <nettime> the destruction is the point.

[Dmytri Kleiner via nettime-l <nettime-l@lists.nettime.org>]

Hi Brian,

Your invocation of Benjamin’s mechanical turk fable seems disconnected from the actual substance of this thread.

Please cite the "dead argument." Did anyone here advocate for a sterile diagnosis or deterministic Marxism?

My text is about capitalism’s profit-reinflation mechanics, describing systemic logic, not prescribing inevitability, dismissing agency or rejecting other dimensions of analysis.

Please quote the exact lines that reject class struggle, human action, or, umm, ... theology?

What is the relevance of Benjamin’s "courage, humour." How do these platitudes "cut through" the argument that capitalism’s profit logic drives bipartisan elite coordination?

My text didn’t reject organizing. Unless you can tie your fables to specific claims in this thread, they read as evasion.

If there’s a “dead argument” here, it’s your insistence on rebutting positions no one took.

Also, what do you mean "AI explaining Capital" where did that take place? In my jokingly having DeepSeek answer Byfields tedious response? What are you refering to?

Best,



April 4, 2025 at 8:52 PM, "Brian Holmes via nettime-l" <nettime-l@lists.nettime.org> wrote:



> 
> I think Walter Benjamin long ago cut through this dead argument:
> 
> "The story is told of an automaton constructed in such a way that it could
> 
> play a winning game of chess, answering each move of an opponent with a
> 
> countermove. A puppet in Turkish attire and with a hookah in its mouth sat
> 
> before a chessboard placed on a large table. A system of mirrors created
> 
> the illusion that this table was transparent from all sides. Actually, a
> 
> little hunchback who was an expert chess player sat inside and guided the
> 
> puppet’s hand by means of strings. One can imagine a philosophical
> 
> counterpart to this device. The puppet called ‘historical materialism’ is
> 
> to win all the time. It can easily be a match for anyone if it enlists the
> 
> services of theology, which today, as we know, is wizened and has to keep
> 
> out of sight."
> 
> Sounds a lot like AI explaining Capital, no? There seem to be preachers in
> 
> all the chatbots these days... It's worth remembering that while pushing
> 
> back against wizened gods and Stalinist Marxism, Benjamin didn't give up on
> 
> either theology or historical materialism:
> 
> "The class struggle, which is always present to a historian influenced by
> 
> Marx, is a fight for the crude and material things without which no refined
> 
> and spiritual things could exist. Nevertheless, it is not in the form of
> 
> the spoils which fall to the victor that the latter make their presence
> 
> felt in the class struggle. They manifest themselves in this struggle as
> 
> courage, humor, cunning, and fortitude."
> 
> Good advice for the living.
> 
> On Fri, Apr 4, 2025 at 10:34 AM Dmytri Kleiner via nettime-l <
> 
> nettime-l@lists.nettime.org> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > ~ no ai produced economic theory in this thread, just a hallucination on
> > 
> >  your part
> > 
> >  - no passivity mentioned or encouraged, another hallucination
> > 
> >  - you have challenged nothing, just refused to engage, the ai did better
> > 
> >  (interpretive, etc)
> > 
> >  - without understanding the cause, we can't evaluate forms of action
> > 
> >  On April 4, 2025 4:43:00 p.m. GMT+02:00, GM - tedbyfield via nettime-l <
> > 
> >  nettime-l@lists.nettime.org> wrote:
> > 
> >  Wait till you hear who else is getting their economic theory from an AI.
> > 
> >  The situation in the US grows more dire by the day, and just-add-water
> > 
> >  pseudo-analyses, whether AI-enabled or not, that invoke structural theories
> > 
> >  to encourage passivity on any level, practical or theoretical, should be
> > 
> >  challenged. If that’s “liberal dream,” fine.
> > 
> >  Cheers,
> > 
> >  Ted
> > 
> >  On 4 Apr 2025, at 6:43, Dmytri Kleiner via nettime-l wrote:
> > 
> >  >
> > 
> >  > This reeks of telling me to stfu, just like Byfields comments, while
> > 
> >  continuing the trend, as DeepSeek pointed out, of misrepresentint the point
> > 
> >  and sidesteping my core argumenents.
> > 
> >  >
> > 
> >  > I'm ok with a bit of humour on nettime, honestly, as well as
> > 
> >  critically engaging with modern tech trends, including (*gasp*) LLMs, and
> > 
> >  trying to post with style (at the risk of being cool, I know)
> > 
> >  >
> > 
> >  > I'm also ok with sticking to the point tho.
> > 
> >  >
> > 
> >  > It's telling that the core points remain unaddressed. No interest in
> > 
> >  the role of profit, just telling me I'm one of those bad marxists who's
> > 
> >  mean and crushes liberal dreams.
> > 
> >  >
> > 
> >  > Don't intend into be male, just noting what gets reproach and what
> > 
> >  doesn't.
> > 
> >  >
> > 
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> > 
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